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I feel as if EVERYONE is going into business these days.. either business or science. what's going to happen to the world? just playing devil's advocate here..... feel free to express yourselfff 
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yeah i've noticed that too.
the business kids should know better than anyone else exactly what will happen---you have a huge supply of business students and not enough jobs geared for them.
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I was talking to a family friend who works for an engineering firm and he hires engineers. He was saying that there in fact are too many people with undergrad business degrees and not enough people in the technical side, like engineering and jobs for engineers are going to increase dramatically over the next 5 or 10 years along with the pay for those jobs.
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This has always been the case historically, I can't remember a time when people opting for the "technical" side outnumbers those of the business end of the spectrum. Also, it should be noted engineering jobs aren't as rock solid as everyone makes them out to be. Canada and the west face A LOT of competition from India and China, far more than in the financial sector where western companies almost universally dominate. Not to mention, a lot of these engineering jobs are either being shipped out to China or just becoming useless. My dad for example was a chemical engineer who specialized in paper. I think we can all guess how that one ended.
As India and China industrialize, the only engineering jobs left will be the specialized design jobs where everyone sits in a cubicle, all the nitty gritty engineering jobs like civil and chemical are all being shipped out, with electrical and a few others holding firm.
Queen's Commerce 2013
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Both of my parents are in the business sector (one into finance, one into accounting) and for some reason, I shifted my career path entirely from CS and Science to Business. The reason for this was because of the practicality of the degree and my interest in economics combined with my dwindling grades in sciences. However, I do agree that in Canada it seems that students with high grades that cant decide on a career path just pick up a business degree rather than a political science or psychology degree.
WLU Honours Business Administration 2013
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Terrios wrote:Both of my parents are in the business sector (one into finance, one into accounting) and for some reason, I shifted my career path entirely from CS and Science to Business. The reason for this was because of the practicality of the degree and my interest in economics combined with my dwindling grades in sciences. However, I do agree that in Canada it seems that students with high grades that cant decide on a career path just pick up a business degree rather than a political science or psychology degree. I would say that happens everywhere, and for good reason. Degrees like political science and psychology are great if you get them from Harvard or some other extremely prestigious place where your prof has John Kerry on speed dial, or your university can book fareed zakaria whenever they please. They aren't so great from average universities or those lacking a lot of clout internationally [no offense canada] so people turn to the non-science subject with most promise for a good middle class life; business.
Queen's Commerce 2013
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there are esteemed canadian political scientists, historians, and economists. Think John Ralston Saul, Naomi Klein, the Ignatieffs, John Kenneth Galbraith, Linda McQuaig, etc.
It's true that a polisci degree from Harvard merits a lot more attention than one from most canadian universities, but a business degree from harvard or the LSE does the same. A technical degree in engineering or science from MIT would be more recognized than one from a good canadian school too, that's the reality of most canadian degrees.
Schools like UofT, McGill, UBC, and perhaps Queens, Western, UW and Dalhousie are able to compete though to an extent in specific areas
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As someone mentioned previously, I think a business degree is popular because it is a relatively practical degree.
Other than engineering and some sciences, a business degree is the most reliable when it comes to finding a job fresh out of school. All of the arts students that I know are either talking about law school or grad school after graduating, but this usually isn't the case for business students/engineers.
I'm not saying that all business grads will be guaranteed a high paying job after graduation, rather, business degrees seem to prepare you to join the work force immediately after graduation.
University of Toronto 2012
Victoria College
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Quote:This has always been the case historically, I can't remember a time when people opting for the "technical" side outnumbers those of the business end of the spectrum. no it hasnt actually. 30-40 years ago, business was the easiest discipline to get into and the only people who went into it were the ones who didnt have the grades for anything else. shocking eh?
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I feel like an arts degree is just as marketable and competitive. However you need to figure out what you want to do, specialize, and get relevant experience. For example, my boyfriend is an English major and wants to go into journalism. I have no doubt that he is going to instantly get a job as soon as he graduates because he has worked at the local paper for 2 years and will likely be chosen as an editor for the school paper next year. But he has worked hard to figure out his passion and get involved in it.
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im going into business next year.
an arts degree is practical too though. most jobs these days you get trained on the job and no background training is needed but a degree is required.. like more than 3/4 of jobs. the exceptions are like medical fields, engineering, accounting etc. very few. most science grads dont work in jobs in their field.. cause there really are no jobs for them. statistically, out of university and years after graduation, surprisingly arts degree holders make more than most science degrees. exceptions are like comp sci and maybe math. life science grads pretty much need to go to med school or they are kinda screwed.
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People go for business because there isn't a cutoff in terms of the skill you need (like there is for say, medicine).
Very competitive business programs, yes, but not business in general. Business also has the reputation of being an better way to make money compared to arts degrees, so everyone who isn't really exceptional at anything just end up going into business.
Meatball Engineering '12
能ある鷹は爪を隠す
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LaVitaeBella wrote:yeah i've noticed that too.
the business kids should know better than anyone else exactly what will happen---you have a huge supply of business students and not enough jobs geared for them. Apparently, if you look at the wages and salary earned by commerce or business graduates then it is still higher than that of most science and art degrees. So obviously the demand is not satisfied by the current supply, therefore, more people are taking business. For science, it's difficult to find a high-paying job after 4 years of college. Computer science, medicine, dentistry are all high paying jobs but they require 2 to 4 years of additional schooling. Also, accounting is a very stable job. In fact it's one of the most recession-proof jobs (even when companies go bankrupt they still need someone to count their assets). However, one problem with studying business unlike studying medicine is that it's very easy to graduate with a bachelor of commerce. So it is hard for employers to know if you're truly skilled and motivated. So I suppose whether or not you'll receive a high-paying job depends on your work experience and co-op. Unlike medicine where, if you graduate from med. school then you're guaranteed a good job. Quote:This has always been the case historically, I can't remember a time when people opting for the "technical" side outnumbers those of the business end of the spectrum. Also, it should be noted engineering jobs aren't as rock solid as everyone makes them out to be. Technically, just to play devil's advocate many universities did not offer "commerce" as a true degree until the 50s. So, before then business was either taught in trade schools or not taught at all. Although, back then many people just didn't go to university. But those who did rarely had the chance to take business.
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Caesar wrote: Computer science, medicine, dentistry are all high paying jobs but they require 2 to 4 years of additional schooling. Computer Science is a 4 year program (and does pay better than business on average). Engineering is also a 4 year program and pays quite well. OUAC's salary listing for Math degrees is above the averages for Business. Nursing is a 4 year program for which the average salary is pretty high (and there's a huge demand) but it doesn't lend itself to outliers (i.e. you will almost certainly make about average unless you use the degree for something very different). For kicks I looked at Schulich's salary report, and it looks to me like most are earning very close to $50,000 with a few outliers earning 3x that bringing the average up to $56,000 (that's starting salaries of course). That's not so different from Engineering, CS, etc.
FAQ's: 1. Will I get in? See: electronicinfo.ca for Ontario schools. If you have a couple percent above the marks there and it's not looking at supplementary, the answer is almost certainly yes. 2. Anything else: Google it before asking.
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I agree the statistics do show that business is not the highest-earning degree. Yet, just like in business where "capital markets" averaged $161,000 in salaries, obviously computer science and engineering have great variations as well. Yet, the statistics do show that business, computer science, and engineering have better wages than the "other" sciences (non-applied physics, chemistry, biology...).
The fundamental problem with business unlike engineering is that like I said, business is too easy to get in and too easy to complete. While the demand for skilled business people is high, probably many business graduates are not skilled. Perhaps skilled at guessing multiple choice questions... but not good at accounting. While for engineering, the courseload is hard so those who graduate are more skilled than the average business graduate. ("skill" pretty much for our use is just intelligence, social skills, and how valuable you are to the employer).
By the way, the OUAC statistics is flawed because there are several schools in the OUAC which are not well known nor as high quality as UT or Waterloo, that doesn't offer engineering or computer science but do offer business. Obviously, by pitting business graduates from Lakehead, Algoma, and Nipssing against CS and Engineering students from UT, McMaster, Waterloo and etc. it's going to lower the average from business graduates from York, UWO, and etc.
Ultimately, people go to business either because they hate math and can't get into engineering or they want to go into finance and get the 100k+ jobs.
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Caesar wrote:Kaylya wrote:Caesar wrote: Computer science, medicine, dentistry are all high paying jobs but they require 2 to 4 years of additional schooling. Computer Science is a 4 year program (and does pay better than business on average). Engineering is also a 4 year program and pays quite well. OUAC's salary listing for Math degrees is above the averages for Business. Nursing is a 4 year program for which the average salary is pretty high (and there's a huge demand) but it doesn't lend itself to outliers (i.e. you will almost certainly make about average unless you use the degree for something very different). For kicks I looked at Schulich's salary report, and it looks to me like most are earning very close to $50,000 with a few outliers earning 3x that bringing the average up to $56,000 (that's starting salaries of course). That's not so different from Engineering, CS, etc. I agree the statistics do show that business is not the highest-earning degree. Yet, just like in business where "capital markets" averaged $161,000 in salaries, obviously computer science and engineering have great variations as well. Yet, the statistics do show that business, computer science, and engineering have better wages than the "other" sciences (non-applied physics, chemistry, biology...). The fundamental problem with business unlike engineering is that like I said, business is too easy to get in and too easy to complete. While the demand for skilled business people is high, probably many business graduates are not skilled. Perhaps skilled at guessing multiple choice questions... but not good at accounting. While for engineering, the courseload is hard so those who graduate are more skilled than the average business graduate. ("skill" pretty much for our use is just intelligence, social skills, and how valuable you are to the employer). By the way, the OUAC statistics is flawed because there are several schools in the OUAC which are not well known nor as high quality as UT or Waterloo, that doesn't offer engineering or computer science but do offer business. Obviously, by pitting business graduates from Lakehead, Algoma, and Nipssing against CS and Engineering students from UT, McMaster, Waterloo and etc. it's going to lower the average from business graduates from York, UWO, and etc. Ultimately, people go to business either because they hate math and can't get into engineering or they want to go into finance and get the 100k+ jobs. Wow. This is possibly the worst post I have ever read. How can you compare the "skill" a business major has to the "skill" an engineering major has? They are learning completely different skillsets. To say one is more valuable to an employer is like saying a forward in hockey is more important than a defencemen. They play different roles so you can't say one is more "skilled" than the other. As for your statement that business students choose that field because they hate math or can't get into engineering...what are you talking about? Maybe they choose business because...they're interested in it?
-Stringer
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Stringer wrote:Caesar wrote:Kaylya wrote:Caesar wrote: Computer science, medicine, dentistry are all high paying jobs but they require 2 to 4 years of additional schooling. Computer Science is a 4 year program (and does pay better than business on average). Engineering is also a 4 year program and pays quite well. OUAC's salary listing for Math degrees is above the averages for Business. Nursing is a 4 year program for which the average salary is pretty high (and there's a huge demand) but it doesn't lend itself to outliers (i.e. you will almost certainly make about average unless you use the degree for something very different). For kicks I looked at Schulich's salary report, and it looks to me like most are earning very close to $50,000 with a few outliers earning 3x that bringing the average up to $56,000 (that's starting salaries of course). That's not so different from Engineering, CS, etc. I agree the statistics do show that business is not the highest-earning degree. Yet, just like in business where "capital markets" averaged $161,000 in salaries, obviously computer science and engineering have great variations as well. Yet, the statistics do show that business, computer science, and engineering have better wages than the "other" sciences (non-applied physics, chemistry, biology...). The fundamental problem with business unlike engineering is that like I said, business is too easy to get in and too easy to complete. While the demand for skilled business people is high, probably many business graduates are not skilled. Perhaps skilled at guessing multiple choice questions... but not good at accounting. While for engineering, the courseload is hard so those who graduate are more skilled than the average business graduate. ("skill" pretty much for our use is just intelligence, social skills, and how valuable you are to the employer). By the way, the OUAC statistics is flawed because there are several schools in the OUAC which are not well known nor as high quality as UT or Waterloo, that doesn't offer engineering or computer science but do offer business. Obviously, by pitting business graduates from Lakehead, Algoma, and Nipssing against CS and Engineering students from UT, McMaster, Waterloo and etc. it's going to lower the average from business graduates from York, UWO, and etc. Ultimately, people go to business either because they hate math and can't get into engineering or they want to go into finance and get the 100k+ jobs. Wow. This is possibly the worst post I have ever read. How can you compare the "skill" a business major has to the "skill" an engineering major has? They are learning completely different skillsets. To say one is more valuable to an employer is like saying a forward in hockey is more important than a defencemen. They play different roles so you can't say one is more "skilled" than the other. As for your statement that business students choose that field because they hate math or can't get into engineering...what are you talking about? Maybe they choose business because...they're interested in it? I said in brackets that "skill" doesn't mean math or how well you know the OB definitions. I said obviously, in a group of students some are more capable than others. Engineering being a hard degree separates those who are capable or "skilled" and those who aren't. How many people have you heard who failed courses like "management, marketing and etc." but a lot of people fail engineering courses like linear algebra and physics. Basically, engineering separates better than business. Business is weak because it fails to separate skilled and not skilled people especially for "easier" options like accounting and marketing. If you still don't get it then take game theory and learn about signalling.
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Caesar wrote:Stringer wrote:Caesar wrote:Kaylya wrote:Caesar wrote: Computer science, medicine, dentistry are all high paying jobs but they require 2 to 4 years of additional schooling. Computer Science is a 4 year program (and does pay better than business on average). Engineering is also a 4 year program and pays quite well. OUAC's salary listing for Math degrees is above the averages for Business. Nursing is a 4 year program for which the average salary is pretty high (and there's a huge demand) but it doesn't lend itself to outliers (i.e. you will almost certainly make about average unless you use the degree for something very different). For kicks I looked at Schulich's salary report, and it looks to me like most are earning very close to $50,000 with a few outliers earning 3x that bringing the average up to $56,000 (that's starting salaries of course). That's not so different from Engineering, CS, etc. I agree the statistics do show that business is not the highest-earning degree. Yet, just like in business where "capital markets" averaged $161,000 in salaries, obviously computer science and engineering have great variations as well. Yet, the statistics do show that business, computer science, and engineering have better wages than the "other" sciences (non-applied physics, chemistry, biology...). The fundamental problem with business unlike engineering is that like I said, business is too easy to get in and too easy to complete. While the demand for skilled business people is high, probably many business graduates are not skilled. Perhaps skilled at guessing multiple choice questions... but not good at accounting. While for engineering, the courseload is hard so those who graduate are more skilled than the average business graduate. ("skill" pretty much for our use is just intelligence, social skills, and how valuable you are to the employer). By the way, the OUAC statistics is flawed because there are several schools in the OUAC which are not well known nor as high quality as UT or Waterloo, that doesn't offer engineering or computer science but do offer business. Obviously, by pitting business graduates from Lakehead, Algoma, and Nipssing against CS and Engineering students from UT, McMaster, Waterloo and etc. it's going to lower the average from business graduates from York, UWO, and etc. Ultimately, people go to business either because they hate math and can't get into engineering or they want to go into finance and get the 100k+ jobs. Wow. This is possibly the worst post I have ever read. How can you compare the "skill" a business major has to the "skill" an engineering major has? They are learning completely different skillsets. To say one is more valuable to an employer is like saying a forward in hockey is more important than a defencemen. They play different roles so you can't say one is more "skilled" than the other. As for your statement that business students choose that field because they hate math or can't get into engineering...what are you talking about? Maybe they choose business because...they're interested in it? I said in brackets that "skill" doesn't mean math or how well you know the OB definitions. I said obviously, in a group of students some are more capable than others. Engineering being a hard degree separates those who are capable or "skilled" and those who aren't. How many people have you heard who failed courses like "management, marketing and etc." but a lot of people fail engineering courses like linear algebra and physics. Basically, engineering separates better than business. Business is weak because it fails to separate skilled and not skilled people especially for "easier" options like accounting and marketing. If you still don't get it then take game theory and learn about signalling. LOL. I'm not going to bother responding to this. Good luck in engineering.
-Stringer
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For U of T: http://i35.tinypic.com/t9cll3.jpgLOL. I guess Business doesn't weed out enough kids though.
-Stringer
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no degree is easy... not a single one. It seems that people are just making their assumptions on whether something is easy or not based on experiences in high school or first year courses in university. doesnt work that way.
getting through business is a lot of work, just like the sciences and the social sciences. it also depends on the type of person you are. i had a friend who barely passed his english and 'social science' types of courses in high school (60s) yet literally got 100 in the maths and sciences. he's excelled in engineering in university.. but i would really like to see how he's coping in the real world not being able to solve life problems logically and to communicate well.. skills that are really important and underestimated. I havent talked to him in a few years, and hes in the field right now but I doubt he'll have much luck making his way up the ladder wherever he is working. Employers value those skills and you would be surprised how many people out there dont have any problem solving skills in the work world. there are lots of stupid people out there.. trust me i know. having a degree.. any degree shows your employer that you have a) common sense, b) problem solving skills (in today's work environment i would argue that communication/problem solving skills.. the ones you pick up in the arts are more important than the science ones you probably won't ever use again. there arent lots of science jobs out there), c) fast learner, d) individual, d) hard work ethics.
So people lets stop bashing certain degrees. every degree is valuable. i already have one degree under my belt (a BA), and i already have 2 years of work experience in a solid 'white collar environment'. When you deal with people in these office type environments, you realize how valuable education is... the older people usually don't have much education because 20-30 years ago a high school diploma was just fine for making your way up and getting a good white collar job. And the ones who make it into there with a college diploma usually don't have the skills employers value. im not bashing college diplomas. I think they are great if the reason you ended up there was your choice and not a result of it being the only choice as your grades were too low to go anywhere else.
Im going back to school for business at the age of 22 (fast tracked my way through my first degree, starting when i was almost 17.. it almost killed me).. not because I dont think my BA is useful enough to build a career.. i've had good luck with it, but because ive developed a strong interest in business during those 2 years after I graduated. And back in my first degree, I had friends in business, and they worked just as hard as anyone to graduate.
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