Think of how much debt you'll be in if you go to Ivey! WOW! Your entire salary for a couple years will be devoted to paying it back. Shulich is a better option, I feel. Obviously, if Queens Commerce is in the equation then go for that.

You can't exactly move mountains with BMOS! jks jks

that's what i'm trying to decide..... cus yea parents are good for it, i'm sure.

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Western - BMOS + IVEY 2o!2

Haha, I second that.

You do nothing but bash Ivey, obviously you just are trying to justify for yourself that you made the right choice.
No one gives a flying hoot. It seems you just wrote a whole composition just to bash Ivey? Yea right, you are obviously having a hard time grasping your decision.

You wrote nothing on Schulich yet you seem to think it is so much superior?
What do they teach you at Schulich? How to reign yourself superior and take down others with you?



The cost of Queens and Ivey is almost identical in four years when you put Residence and food in play.



I am just trying to play Devil's advocate right now, not really supporting either. Just the points that you guys right are extremely bias and almost surreal.

Although What I'm going to say MAY be an isolated case, a friend of a friend of mine graduated from ivey a few years back and is now making 150K+ a year working for a consulting firm in California. Thus, I would like to believe that an Ivey degree does hold some recognition in the North American Business Market and not just in Canada. As well, you can't argue with the 96% job placement and average starting salaries. In reality it depends what you want Queens, Schulich, Ivey, U of T, Laurier etc. are all excellent business schools and they all have both pro's and con's to them. Make a choice, stick to it, work hard, and anyone graduating from the above mentioned programs should be set for life.

just to add on some strange comment. if you specialize in the capital market, you can even earn more than that
going into business, either into business schools or the career, is all about inventment and making money.
and more importantly, the ability to maximize returns depends on the individual himself.. or herself: how the individual cope with decision making, whether he or she is an extreme over-achiever, and the few per cent depeds on luck and the environment (including post-secondary institution) in which you are nutured. quadrant is right in a sense that he/she analyses the rate of return for quadrant him/herself. And i think it is alright to be bold and stand out, speak out your idea, no matter how biased the information is - to defend the school he/she's in. lol 'tis just funny to see quadrant being bombarded by different opinions (which is also a good thing)

oh well. happy debating : D

This thread is interesting, as it really just popped out of no-where. To a certain extent what quadrant is saying is true, but it is a very heavily biased opinion that covers one side, and it may be a little towards the extreme. There's no use making personal accusations and pointing fingers - lets reason this out. Lets break his argument down by proposition:-

Quadrant, what you are saying is:

QUADRANT'S PROPOSITION
- Ivey offers an Arts degree (BA) in Honours Business Administration, not a BBA or B.Com
- Ivey is a shorter program of 2 years
- You cannot get job support until you are in Ivey in 3rd year
- Ivey exchange doesn’t fit in the program or a waste of tuition (whatever you are trying to say there)
- To go to Ivey you need to be in a ‘normal’ university program with lectures of 500 students for the first two years
- Ivey’s case base method is not much better than other schools as other schools also use cases.

All of the propositions above are quite true - and im not going to bother to refute any of those......, but then you landed up with the following conclusion:

- Therefore, Ivey is a bad school or the Ivey option is a bad option (hence you didn’t go to Ivey)

I don’t necessarily think that your propositions would necessarily support your conclusion very well, considering that the performance of grad students is just as good as Schulich, if not better. Your propositions are true, and strong, but it doesnt logically flow into your conclusion. So the thing about Ivey being a bad school is out of the drain - and I personally do not think Ivey is a bad school at all. However, that doesn’t mean that Ivey is the only true “godly” option people should look at – people should look at the minor advantages and disadvantages of each school. You’ve effectively pointed out Ivey’s disadvantages, but you didn’t point out their advantages.

As for the rest of you - especially the high school students who are deciding - you need to consider what fits for you. Quadrant made a decision to go to Schulich instead of Ivey and he was happy with it, but that’s what suits him. But everyone else needs to think for themselves and see if you do ‘care’ about the advantages and disadvantages for you. Perhaps advantages like “being in Toronto” or “cheap tuition” or disadvantages like “being in a 500 person class in the first 2 years” or “not going on exchange” may not be a huge factor for you, and could be relatively insignificant. But that’s different for everybody – there is no objective way to determine what is the better choice. Thus, only you and yourself can determine what's best for you, and you need to do all the research and consider all the facts before making a decision.

For the record, I was basically indifferent between Ivey and Queen’s when I applied and got admissions to both (I also had both BBA and iBBA offer from Schulich – that was back in the day). It was a really, really difficult time trying to figure out where I was going to go. I went to the campuses (twice each), did the tours, bought the Maclean’s book, studied the statistics, read the Globe and Mail report card, then flipped a coin*, and I finally chose Queen’s. I then came to Queen’s, did 4 years, and absolutely loved it. I got my full-time offer to work in downtown Toronto before starting 4th year, and have had a blast being on the student government, residence don, and seeing Queen’s grow and evolve. I’ve made the right choice and have never since looked back - and I'm actually REALLY excited for conovation coming up in 2 weeks (I think David Dodge, the former bank of canada governor, will be there - he's our new chancellor). If you’ve done your due diligence, you will be happy with your choice.

So... again, dont be angry and take quadrant too seriously. As usual, if you have any questions, give me a shout or send me an email!


* ------- I did flip a coin when I was trying to make a decision, and it’s the called the coin test (I invented this myself). Essentially this is how it works – once you’ve narrowed down to 2 choices, you assign a school to heads and another to tails (naturally, the head of the Queen was “Queen’s, and the ducks was “Western” j/k). Then flip the coin 3 OR 5 times, and tell yourself that whatever comes out to the majority, you shall go. If you are satisfied with the result, that’s where you should go, but if you have the urge to keep flipping to get the other result, then it’s an indicator of something. For me, the coin flipped Western 3 times in a row, and I had the absolute urge to cheat and flip again. My friends were observing me trying to cheat and that’s when I realized that Queen’s was for me and my unconscious self wanted Queen’s. So I went for it and it turned out I was right!

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Commerce '08, Queen's School of Business
Email: eddie.ho@business.queensu.ca Search for the Queen's Commerce 2012 group on facebook!

Ok fair point for Toronto. I was thinking more along the lines of NY/London.

First and foremost, im not desperate or anything like that (@wsitumn). Im just trying to point out a fact… some real, serious, hard facts that some people like Iveys marketing department love to hide from young unsuspecting grade 12 students.

The focus of my message is that some people here tend to think that Ivey is some sort of super-power school in business, which is further exaggerated by their highly corporate and fake website. I want to point out that thats not the case, and to warn high school students not to be sold by their marketing methods. If Ivey does truly sell what they are advertising, lets hear it directly from some of the AEOs or HBAs who are there RIGHT NOW.

I mean, look at their website. Just as an example – first point about why Ivey.
“IVEY SELECT (TM). Our applicant screening process places you in a class of students with exceptional work/life balance. Your peers have "top of the class" academic records from more than 20 different academic programs. But its not just about grades. In fact, only at Ivey is student achievement outside of the classroom as important to our selection process as academic achievement.”. Thats such a blatant lie. At Schulich, and at other schools, they admit by extra-curriculars as well.

Also – look in what they cover in “HBA Year 1”. Most of the stuff they label there are covered in first year and second already. Dont you think it’s a waste of time… and money?

And yes, eddie, I get your whole philosophical point and your critical thinking skills and stuff. But it’s exactly what you’ve written which I have a problem with.
“QUADRANT'S PROPOSITION
- Ivey offers an Arts degree (BA) in Honours Business Administration, not a BBA or B.Com
- Ivey is a shorter program of 2 years
- You cannot get job support until you are in Ivey in 3rd year
- Ivey exchange doesnt fit in the program or a waste of tuition (whatever you are trying to say there)
- To go to Ivey you need to be in a ‘normal’ university program with lectures of 500 students for the first two years
- Ivey’s case base method is not much better than other schools as other schools also use cases.”

Having identified all their negativities, DO you honestly and truly think that all of that is REALLY worth the $50,000 over 4 years – the fact that you’re really in the actual business program in Year 3 and 4? [Tuition only}. Comparatively speaking, Schulich is arond $25,000 for all 4 years [tuition only], and if you want the high university spirit, Queen’s is still lower at $43,000 (tuition only) – or go to Laurier for less than $25,000. U are paying $50,000 for an Arts Degree, for a short 2 year program, for no job support until 3rd year, for a poorer exchange program, and to be in normal classes in year 1 and 2. It really astounds me how people can still think of paying an additional $25,000 to go to such a program – you can do a lot with $25,000 – like buy a brand new Toyota Camry or a 80% of a hybrid (and pay the 20% off later). Queen’s is super expensive too – if it wasnt for the school spirit and experience people would not go there – at least they somewhat justify themselves by being a four year program instead of two. No matter where you go, Ivey, Queens, Schulich, the end result is the same but you pay soo much different prices.

its not about whether Ivey is a bad school or a bad choice, it’s about there are many other better choices. At the end, you’re only doing your undergrad.

perhaps I should’ve relabelled my post about the problem I have with Iveys marketing methods as opposed to Ivey being a bad school. Ivey is not a bad school, but the way it’s recruiting students is highly unethical. And yes, you can talk bad about Schulich, and Im sure you can talk bad about Queen’s (no school is immune), but I think $50k is not worth it.

and now to rebut some people’s comments.

@Josh – you talk about not being decided and wanting to go to Ivey because you are undecided. That’s a worse decision than being decided – I mean unless you want to opt out of Ivey. In that case, you should go to a better university that is better at sciences than western.

@Noel – this isnt a waste of time. Im trying not to waste other people’s time.

@mrbenl – you should think about what is the wisest choice. Yes, it’s your parents money and you dont need to worry, but you need to think what is a logical choice. Paying $50k is not logical. Your parents worked hard for that money and you want it to go down the drain by having a 2 years of quality business education instead of 4?

@fatMan. Again-if you think money doesnt matter, consider where you would be in second year, vs. a second year at Schulich or Queen’s or Rotman. It’s a faster route and do you really want to be in a 500-student class in year 1 and 2?

@martin . Queen’s isnt exactly superior. It may feel like the best of both worlds in quality and student spirit, but the diversity isnt that great there and some people cannot fit in. The rezzes are expensive and Kingston is far away. People like eddiehosa made through the system in the way it’s designed, but if you dont fit, you wont fit.

@sicklyfe – Im not bashing Ivey exclusively – I dont want to. Its not my intention to. It’s my intention to inform. People might actually give a “flying hoot” about this – this is a serious matter. And Schulich has enough graduates to be able to testify to the quality of our program and we are in no way inferior to Ivey.

@stringer – lets not talk about me being a cheapshot. Do you disagree with my arguments in my first post or not?

@sicklyfe again – Have you called and phoned Ivey up yet? It’s a Bachelor’s of Arts degree you are getting. Once you phoned them up and ask them, let me know what you think about their website ok? Their website was bad enough last year – this year it was even worse.

@PistolPete – anyone with a well respected degree will be able to make that amount of money ($150K). CA’s make $150K in several years after graduation (this is a well researched fact) – and CAs graduate from non-hyped up places like Trent, Brock, Carleton etc and may as well make more money then some of the Ivey grads.

@malinini – nope, im not paid by schulich nor York. I just wanted to make a comment.

@eddiehosa – you and your wiseguy posts... lol… I didnt say Ivey is a “bad school” – Im just trying to point out that there may be better options than ivey. And I still think that considering that you pay $50k for a 2 year business program, regardless of what your fit is and all that jazz that you always talk about, Ivey may be a LESS logical choice than some what other places offered.

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Schulich 2011

well... time and time again schulich is sweeping the rankings. ivey has really fallen from where they've been 10 years aog and i go back to my point - do u want to pay $25k or $50k for the schools with similar rannkings. and what will the labour market look like 5 years from now when you graduate? things would be very different ... considering how things quickly change these days.

and oh yes. this just came in another #1 in canada ranking. http://www.yorku.ca/yfile/archive/index.asp?Article=10492

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Schulich 2011

After everything that's been said about Schulich vs Queens vs Ivey, I'm so glad I only applied ot one of them. xD Its hard enough trying to decide whether to go into business at all, it would be nearly impossible to decide between the three!

Highly informative posts, you guys. xD Especially eddiehosa and quadrant - I love hearing negative aspects of different schools. Its so different from all the "pro"paganda you hear...

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Schulich BBA 2012