work experience is part of ECs, so don't really see why ur complaining.

I completely agree with you.
Thank god the university I'm going to (McGill) doesn't consider ECs as a factor for admission to most programs.

I think that it is fair that they get credit for what they do in their spare time, but it should only be counted if you've been in the organization/team for a long time (ie. 2+ years) and be able to actually explain your role. I've been a member of my rugby team for 4 yrs, and I see people who join for gr. 12 only, just to write it on their supp. applications, and I see it all the time with my school's fundraising group too (hey, our $ goes to free the children too! ). It is very annoying though, seeing the teacher advertise the fact that it looks great to universities to get students to volunteer, because it makes us all look like total douche bags, even though some of us actually care about the causes.

But then again, from the university's standpoint, they want well-balanced students who can have a social life and study at the same time. Otherwise, all universities would end up like waterloo *shudder* ... kidding! ...sorta... Really though, you don't want your entire student body to be robots.

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"My parents live in Ohio; I live in the moment." -himym.

Agreed.

Most people I know volunteer because they need it for university entrances or for scholarships. This takes away the incentive for people to volunteer in areas that they show genuine interest in and push people to volunteer at "noble" positions such as the Red Cross, Food bank, and Cancer Society, because extensive hours in these positions looks better on paper. Not that I don't support these positions; I simply don't support lazy volunteers who do half-hearted jobs because they couldn't care less about the job itself. But hey, as long as it looks good on paper, right?

A numerous number of high school clubs are jokes. I see clubs like the "Environmental awareness club", "Multicultural Club", and "Peer Support Club" do absolutely nothing. Heck, how is it SUPPOSE to be multicultural when the club only has 3 members? Then again, "founder and leader of the Multicultural club" sounds pretty dec for those scholarships, no?

Then there are those who are more upfront. They laugh at the volunteers and club members because they simply make their ECs up, so instead of spending 300hrs volunteering, they spend 3 minutes pulling fictitious experiences out of their ears. How about "Head organizer of the HIV/AIDs awareness run" for that university application?

I get it, so instead of looking at how much drive we have, how much we help others, our leadership experiences, etc. he want's them to somehow give admissions and scholarships by marks alone. Wanna explain yourself? Everyone I know has a 92+ average, and if you want them to say, since you have a 95, you are clearly far superior to this guy with a 94.. thats actually rediculous. If they have 200 spots, and give it to the top 200 marks, then theres the on kids per every few schools that has a 99 average (there are 6 of them in mine but thats abnormal), and thats ur program. How wrong wuld that be.

I have to disagree. You have no idea how much effort and time management skills it takes to juggle between schoolwork and clubs. Work-work is defintely a must, but to get involved in student life shows a lot about your character and your communicative skills.

You see thats what I hate. My lack of desire to get involved shows NOTHING about my character. When I grow up I AM going to make a difference. On of the main reasons I want to be a doctor is to go on Doctors Without Borders. Its nice though that people like you who I assume do volunteer can so easily make a judgement about my character, especially without meeting me.

As for communicative skills, I thought English which is a prerequisite for everything can be a fairly good indicator of communicative skills. You know, since it is kind of based entirely on your ability to communicate through essays and presentations.

1) I have nothing short of total respect for the people in my school who have that average, and they all deserve to be wherever they want.

My point was, how can you differentiate between a person with a 95, and a 94. A 95, and even a 92. Schools, classes, teachers, all so different. And even all factors the same, 1% in average could mean they have a 94.4 and a 94.6. That's no basis to take one student over another.

2) If you have a 95, and I have a 94, do you honestly think that means you are somehow better at learning?

What if you have a 95, and nothing else. I have a 94, started my own charity, coached a team at my school, started another team at my school, played on 3 more, am a member of 4 clubs, and volunteer in my feild of choice during the summer.

Now you see how useful that knowledge is to a university.

3) I agree clubs are usually a bit of a joke. It still shows SOME ability to commit, and some drive, as well as interest. They've gotta get information from somewhere right? I personally, and I think this goes for everyone, do most of what I do, because I want to. I want to play sports, I want to help others, I want to lead others, etc etc etc. However, no one can ignore the fact that if you really go all out, you're likely to be rewarded. It's human nature, and that's fine. It's notbad unless they fake it all and do it all for scholarships, that I'd agree with.

What other skills? If I hire an accountant I hire him for his ability to get me as much money as possible. If I go to a doctor I go to him for his ability to cure my disease.

Now I have a question for you.....you stated the skills gained by volunteering etc. So if I go to university with the resolve to not join any clubs on the basis that I think it is kind of selling myself out and preech to people about why they shouldn't join clubs unless they ACTUALLY want to, does that not also show leadership and a lot MORE dedication, since I will be risking my dream job for my principles. There are many ways to gain the skills you mentioned, and university's job is to teach not to look for character traits. When I apply for a job THEN they can see if my traits match their needs.

BTW I am not saying that basing a system purely on marks is perfect for the reasons you stated, as well as the fact the fact that stupid mistakes may distort averages and school may inflate them. However I think it would be A LOT better of a system than the one currently in place.

Because universities want people who are going to a) make the university a fun place, and b) are smart. I'm sure you all have 'that guy' in your school who studies his butt off and gets 98 averages. He's probably not a very interesting person, is he? The point is, people who are active community members in high school are active community members in university, which is what makes a university fun to go to. Otherwise, everybody will just study in their room all day.