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paramecium wrote:Where can I get a clear idea of what a pharmacist does exactly? Can anyone recommend good websites with relevant info to the current age and Ontario?
Also I wanted to know after you get a B.Pharm or whatever after you go to a Pharmacy school (ie Waterloo), what is usually the next step? More Education? Giving tests and getting certifications in order to become a Pharmacist? Pharmacists are essentially problem-solvers. Most of the time, pharmacists are just checking the work of technicians; at least that is the case right now. A person comes in with a prescription and, usually, a tech will receive the prescription. The tech asks for and types in the person's information (address, phone #, age, health insurance #, allergies, etc...), if the person has never been to the pharmacy before, and the prescription information (name of drug, strength, dosage form, quantity, how to take, name of prescriber), and then prints out the prescription label and receipt. The tech then fills the Rx. The pharmacist checks the completed product (i.e. the filled bottle of medication, the prescription label and receipt, and the prescription itself), looking to make sure it is the correct drug, that there were no insurance issues, that the dose is correct, and checks over any 'red flags' that software may have picked up (e.g. if the person has an allergic reaction to a food dye that is found in the drug or if the person is allergic to penicillins and is prescribed amoxicillin). Most of the time, it is simple because the techs do a good job and the fill is usually a refill on a drug that a person has been taking for awhile without any issue. If everything is good, the pharmacist will give the person his or her prescription if it's a new Rx and also educate the patient on how to take the drug, what to expect from it (both good and bad), and other such info. If it's a refill, a tech will hand out the drug and ask if the person has any questions. I'd say that the job is just half checking, half answering questions (from patients, techs, prescribers, and even other pharmacists). Just as important as knowing all about the drug, you have to know about insurance coverage. For example, a 10mg strength of a drug might be covered, but the 20mg version may not be. If a person comes in with an Rx for the 20mg strength, then the pharmacist will spot this when checking over the Rx, and can "adapt" the Rx so that the person is given twice as many of the 10mg strength of drug and takes the drug accordingly. Or something like that... there's lots of little tricks involved with insurance coverage. If the tech doesn't understand the Rx, then you have to make sense of it. If the software or one of the dispensing machines isn't working according to plan, then you have to fix it. If there's a complicated prescription for a compound (e.g. a custom skin cream for a person with psoriasis), then you have to figure out how to make it. If a person comes in with a question, then you tell them the answer; if you don't know the answer, then you have to figure it out using the appropriate resources. If a doctor wants a person off drugs containing lactose (a common non-medicinal ingredient in drugs), then you have to figure out if there are different manufacturers or different strengths of the drug that don't contain lactose or possibly even suggest a similar drug that doesn't contain lactose. If a doctor doesn't know how to dose for a person with renal failure, then you have to figure out the dose. I can think of a lot of weird scenarios like that. Pharmacists are always dealing with weird scenarios/questions/issues. Aside from getting licensed after completing your BScPharm, there's generally no further step. In the near future, there may be an increase in the number of people going back to school to get their PharmDs, as the PharmD will soon be what is required for practice. While current BScPharm pharmacists will likely not be required to upgrade, some may feel the need to go back to get a PharmD to remain competitive (especially those BScPharm pharmacists who work in hospitals).
BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy University of Alberta '13
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veenzky wrote:Hi, Matt, I have a few questions about pharmacy as I am very interested in this career
First of all, although most schools only require one year of undergrad to get in, is it really likely to be accepted after only one year? Have most people in pharmacy school completed more than just one year? and is there a big advantage to doing more than one year of undergrad science before applying to pharmacy school? I noticed that you chose to go with getting a science degree before going into pharmacy, why did you decide that? Just because you weren't sure about pharmacy until the time you finished your degree?
Also, it was mentioned before that pharmacists can work in hospitals, but not just in a hospital pharmacy? Could you please explain a little more about what their tasks/duties in the day would be like?
Thanks in advance. The more education you have, the easier it is to get in. If you do really well in your first year of undergrad and/or have lots of good qualities (e.g. pharmacy experience, a good admissions essay, high PCAT [if applicable], good ECs, awesome interview [if applicable], etc...), then you'll get in. Probably about a quarter of my class got in after first year; the majority of the class got in after second year (mind you most of the applicants would be second-year students, so it just makes sense that the class be made up mostly of second-year entrants); and then another quarter or so got in after third or fourth year or beyond. Does it help to have the extra education? Yes. Is it worth it? Absolutely not. Having that extra education only helps out a bit. Honestly, pharmacy experience helps out more than having a degree in medical science. I didn't decide on pharmacy until my fourth year, so I just finished my degree and then was accepted to pharmacy. It's not uncommon for a person to do something like that. It's also not uncommon for a rejected med or dent hopeful to go into pharmacy instead (I know a couple people in my class who re-applied for med/dent, both of whom were accepted and dropped out of pharmacy). I don't know nearly as much about a hospital pharmacist's practice as I do about a community pharmacist's practice. What I do know is that hospital pharmacist's work with physicians to make sure that patients are on all the right drugs at all the right doses and then do a lot of monitoring of those patients. Things get pretty complicated when you have a patient on more than just a few drugs, especially if the patient has one or more chronic illnesses (which is generally the case in hospital practice), particularly if an illness affects kidney and/or liver function. veenzky wrote:Nocturnal Rat wrote:There are still shortage of pharmacists further away from the city but the profession is definitely changing in Ontario with all the new legislations, it will be interesting to see how it unfolds in a few years. It seems like a bad idea to regulate technicians but the technicians can already check prescriptions in hospitals, allowing the pharmacists to focus on clinical work. The current role of the community pharmacists are less clinically oriented so there be a gradual change in work focus, which may not be entirely bad. what kind of things would they be doing specifically? Vaccinations, medication review consults, prescribing medications for patients, blood pressure monitoring, coagulation monitoring, diabetes monitoring, asthma monitoring, ordering and analyzing lab tests.
BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy University of Alberta '13
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congrats 100 average@@ could you tell me more about the details? like how you got there, your highschool avg, do i need SAT score... things like that?
UW- biomed (regular)/ biochem (coop) UWO- biomed UOttawa- biomed McGill- biomed/nursing
top 6 avg: somewhere b/w 94~97
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Is Waterloo the only school in Canada that grants a guaranteed entry to Pharm. from high school?
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Yes.
BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy University of Alberta '13
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I am thinking of going into the program but not sure if the application process would be worth it or not. I believe that you will still have to do a full first year general studies before going into Pharm. Would the PCAT still be mandatory?
@mynameismatt. how do you like the BAPharm program at UA...it certainly is closer to home for me.
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The PCAT is NOT necessary for acceptance to Waterloo.
U of A arguably has the best pharmacy program across Canada. At least, our graduates consistently score highest on the national licensing exams.
I like that our courses are modular and that we have lots of experiential learning. Modular in that we don't take a course in physiology, a course in anatomy, a course in pharmacology, a course in toxicology, etc... We have a course in one specific area (e.g. this year it was in Dermatology/Eye/Ear/Nose/Throat), in which we learn about the physiology, anatomy, and pathology of those systems and the pharmacology and toxicology of drugs used to treat conditions of those systems. In my experience taking courses in each subject separately, I found it was difficult to integrate knowledge from the courses (especially because you often don't take all the courses at one time... e.g. I learned about the physiology of the cardiovascular system in first semester of third year, but I didn't learn about the pathology of the CV system until second semester of fourth year - by that time, I had forgotten all about the physiology, so the pathology didn't make as much sense).
I believe U of A is also the only school in Canada that requires its students to do a first-year practicum. I just spent the entire month of April in a pharmacy as a pharmacy student. I learned a lot there and was able to practice a lot of the skills and use a lot of the knowledge I had learned in first year. It definitely helped.
Also, U of A, along with U of T, will be introducing an undergraduate PharmD program pretty soon. I don't know where the other pharmacy schools stand, but I'm pretty sure U of A and U of T will be the first to unroll undergraduate PharmD programs in Canada. It's fairly important for me, and anyone else in my year, that my school allow me the option of doing an undergraduate PharmD because I may be able to transfer into it before I graduate. It's less important to anyone who is currently in high school.
BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy University of Alberta '13
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Very well said Matt, thanks for the information. I will consider UA in the future. Would the undergrad PharmD be any different from the current PharmD as a professional degree? The programs would not co-exist right?
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They'd co-exist. The current PharmD would still be around for people with BScPharm degrees wanting to upgrade.
The undergraduate PharmD program would, I believe, be a five-year degree. What I understand is that it won't really be much different than the current BScPharm degree, but there will be an extra semester of courses in fourth year (in place of the current semester-long fourth-year practicum that is required at all pharmacy schools in Canada) and the fifth year will be a year-long practicum.
BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy University of Alberta '13
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Thanks, I got this all clear now.
So even if I do BScPharm at UA or UT first, I will still have a chance to transfer (like what you are hoping for too) to a undergrad PharmD program. This will save time from doing the extra two years of PharmD when you have to upgrade from BScPharm. Any idea if undergrad PharmD would be direct entry from secondary school or not. My guess is no...still one year of post-secondary first.
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Hey Matt, I should be in good shape to get into U of T pharmacy next year but I'm concerned about the profession. With government is trying to cut back deficits by making cuts in pharmacies and and not reinvesting back into it, I'm wondering what options I have after I graduate if I can't find a job. With independent consultants projecting half the pharmacies in Ontario to close with others working at reduced hours, job prospect seems pretty dismal. I believe that licensing exam for pharmacy is national so I guess I can always move to other province. Is it difficult to write the American licensing exam graduating from a Canadian university? What other options are available?
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@ Metropolitan: you'll probably actually need at least two years of life science undergrad beforehand.
@ CheeseCake: tough to say. I don't think the Ontario government will carry through with the current proposal. There's been too much outcry.
Also, the Ontario government does plan on reinvesting some of the cuts. Alberta is doing the same thing, but it didn't make as significant cuts and it reinvested proportionally more money back into the pharmacies (Alberta reinvested $50 million; Ontario, with nearly 3-4 times as many pharmacists, only plans on reinvesting $100 million).
If worse comes to worst, the licensing exam in Canada IS national, but you will have to write a provincial jurisprudence exam, and it is not difficult to write the American licensing exam. Honestly, I don't really fear that.
The proposal, particularly if Ontario adjusts it a bit, just means major chains will be less competitive but independents (those that focus on clinical services, at least) will be more competitive than they are now.
BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy University of Alberta '13
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Do you think it is possible that you get accepted to Dental/Med School after completing the BScPharm and took all the required courses for the dental or med school (eg. BioChem, Organic Chem..etc.)
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mynameismattgotmlgo wrote:@ Metropolitan: you'll probably actually need at least two years of life science undergrad beforehand.
@ CheeseCake: tough to say. I don't think the Ontario government will carry through with the current proposal. There's been too much outcry.
Also, the Ontario government does plan on reinvesting some of the cuts. Alberta is doing the same thing, but it didn't make as significant cuts and it reinvested proportionally more money back into the pharmacies (Alberta reinvested $50 million; Ontario, with nearly 3-4 times as many pharmacists, only plans on reinvesting $100 million).
If worse comes to worst, the licensing exam in Canada IS national, but you will have to write a provincial jurisprudence exam, and it is not difficult to write the American licensing exam. Honestly, I don't really fear that.
The proposal, particularly if Ontario adjusts it a bit, just means major chains will be less competitive but independents (those that focus on clinical services, at least) will be more competitive than they are now. to metropolitan: yes to matt: i'm sure from many sources that independent pharmacies rely on professional allowances the most right now to stay in business and they are the first ones to go under when this bill is passed. 750 million in cuts and 100 million back to the system... what a sick joke...
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Cheesecake wrote:i'm sure from many sources that independent pharmacies rely on professional allowances the most right now to stay in business and they are the first ones to go under when this bill is passed. That's true, but independent pharmacies (once again, at least the ones that focus on clinical services) also have the most to gain from it. Right now, more and more independent pharmacies are closing because they're being outcompeted by the major chains. The successful ones are generally the ones that have found a niche, most often that would be by offering clinical services that the major chains, which focus on pumping out prescriptions, don't. If the government begins reimbursing pharmacies for providing these clinical services and there is less money to be made in simply doling out prescriptions, then it will be those independent pharmacies already focused on clinical services that will benefit most. Less competition, more money. This, of course, all depends on exactly how much the Ontario government will actually take from the pharmacy industry. Taking 650 million is crippling to everyone.
BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy University of Alberta '13
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CheeseCake wrote:
to metropolitan: yes to matt: i'm sure from many sources that independent pharmacies rely on professional allowances the most right now to stay in business and they are the first ones to go under when this bill is passed.
750 million in cuts and 100 million back to the system... what a sick joke...
You don't get that 100 million until you do more work (eg. vaccinations), you know! I personally think SDM and other chains have better resources for offering specialized services than independent pharmacists. They have economies of scale on their side... they just have to think of it now.
Waterloo Math/CA - 2014
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wow, thanks for giving a good picture of what pharmacists actually do. I think when most people think of pharmacists they think of pharmacy technicians, and most people really don't know a lot about what pharmacists do.
Right now I'm just finishing high school and I'm still kinda considering if I want to go into pharmacy or try for med school. I think I'm willing to work hard and long enough to become a doctor, but there is still uncertainty about getting into med school. On top of that, I kinda fear having no life outside of my job, which I think often comes with being a doctor. So I think being a pharmacist rather than a doctor would be the better choice for me.
Still not totally sure, but I'm definitely open to suggestions.
UBC '14
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Soro wrote:I personally think SDM and other chains have better resources for offering specialized services than independent pharmacists. They have economies of scale on their side... they just have to think of it now. The people who go to SDM and other major chains generally go there because they want their prescription filled as quick as possible and aren't really interested in anything else. A lot of currently successful independents compete by offering those specialized services. The pharmacist I worked with during my practicum knew most of his customers by name; tracked a lot of their blood pressures, blood sugars, breathing, etc...; was more than willing to spend time with them talking about diabetes (what it is, what causes it, how to monitor it, and how to manage it) and other medical conditions, a practice that physicians have no time for; and is just willing to chat with his patients. In return, he has A LOT of repeat customers and a fun practice. Of course, not all patients want these services. The thing is, he could lose all the patients who don't want these services, and he'd still be just as profitable because he now makes money (and quite a bit) by offering those services to the many patients who do value them. I don't really think the major chains have better resources for offering specialized services. First of all, they'd have to rearrange the insides of their pharmacies to allow for private consultation rooms, as most don't currently have even one. They'd also have to find some way of pulling in patients who value those services (most of whom already likely have a pharmacy of choice), rather than just patients who want their Rx ASAP (which is currently the major chains' patient of choice). They might even have to retrain a lot of their pharmacists to be able to conduct those services. And it will be difficult to use an economy of scale to your advantage in this case... because the patient doesn't pay for those services; the government does. I guess you can best advertise yourself, but, other than that, I can't really see that helping.
BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy University of Alberta '13
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veenzky wrote:wow, thanks for giving a good picture of what pharmacists actually do. I think when most people think of pharmacists they think of pharmacy technicians, and most people really don't know a lot about what pharmacists do.
Right now I'm just finishing high school and I'm still kinda considering if I want to go into pharmacy or try for med school. I think I'm willing to work hard and long enough to become a doctor, but there is still uncertainty about getting into med school. On top of that, I kinda fear having no life outside of my job, which I think often comes with being a doctor. So I think being a pharmacist rather than a doctor would be the better choice for me.
Still not totally sure, but I'm definitely open to suggestions. Being a doctor is a lot more stressful. There's a lot to know, and you're expected to know it all. If you F up, you could easily harm a patient. Plus you have to go through like a hundred years of pretty intense schooling. Not for me, and I think doctors absolutely deserve what they get paid. Just keep an open mind. Getting into medicine is absolutely not a guarantee; pharmacy is a little more realistic. But there are a lot of other career paths to take too...
BMSc Honours Specialization in Medical Science, Minor in Psychology UWO '09 Bachelor of Pharmacy University of Alberta '13
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mynameismattgotmlgo wrote:Soro wrote:I personally think SDM and other chains have better resources for offering specialized services than independent pharmacists. They have economies of scale on their side... they just have to think of it now. The people who go to SDM and other major chains generally go there because they want their prescription filled as quick as possible and aren't really interested in anything else. A lot of currently successful independents compete by offering those specialized services. The pharmacist I worked with during my practicum knew most of his customers by name; tracked a lot of their blood pressures, blood sugars, breathing, etc...; was more than willing to spend time with them talking about diabetes (what it is, what causes it, how to monitor it, and how to manage it) and other medical conditions, a practice that physicians have no time for; and is just willing to chat with his patients. In return, he has A LOT of repeat customers and a fun practice. Of course, not all patients want these services. The thing is, he could lose all the patients who don't want these services, and he'd still be just as profitable because he now makes money (and quite a bit) by offering those services to the many patients who do value them. I don't really think the major chains have better resources for offering specialized services. First of all, they'd have to rearrange the insides of their pharmacies to allow for private consultation rooms, as most don't currently have even one. They'd also have to find some way of pulling in patients who value those services (most of whom already likely have a pharmacy of choice), rather than just patients who want their Rx ASAP (which is currently the major chains' patient of choice). They might even have to retrain a lot of their pharmacists to be able to conduct those services. And it will be difficult to use an economy of scale to your advantage in this case... because the patient doesn't pay for those services; the government does. I guess you can best advertise yourself, but, other than that, I can't really see that helping. But what you say is actually easier for them. SDM has huge stores, they have the floorspace to add rooms whereas independent stores that don't already offer these services can't. Specifically, independent stores probably don't have room to give vaccinations, but SDM can steal room from cosmetics or whatnot. Their large corporate reach allows them to effectively air the ads and raise awareness for any new services they plan to offer at their locations whereas an independent would have to go sort of by word of mouth. I'm sure with all the unemployment, there will be specialists and patients looking for these specialized pharmacists who SDM can snatch up if they wanted to.... I would rather work for SDM than be unemployed (but not Lowblows!). It's important to note that while some independent pharmacies offer the extra services you mention, most don't and are less capable of converting than SDM.
Waterloo Math/CA - 2014
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