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Rank: Frosh
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/4/2008
Posts: 20
Location: Hamilton, Ontario
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Does It really matter all of this in the end. People who are intelligent and well rounded individuals will be succesfull in school and life. AN interesting story a friend of mine is at U of T med school and during his application interview one of the questions was "On a typical Friday ngiht, what do you do" he answered truthfully and said that normally he goes out with his friends/to a party. Others answered by saying that they stay in and study, or watch TV. Few of the latter where accepted whereas many of my friends fellow studens answered the same as he did that on Friday nightt they go out. IF you want to be a docter, lawyer, or generally succesfull in the business world you need to have people skills no matter how brilliant you are, if you can't convey this brilliance to others it is tough to be succesfull.
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Rank: Frosh
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/4/2008
Posts: 13
Location: Toronto
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It's ridiculously true... the ECs and student volunteering are a complete load of BS. Volunteering anywhere now, even a prominent Toronto hospital, is a complete joke and just a way to get a bunch of numbers on a sheet of paper to make oneself look impressive on a resume or uni app. I cannot STAND how 90% of the people out there that are head of this and that "social justice/awareness" whatever BS, are just completely fake and could not care more whether they make a difference to anyone else, only to how much of an advantage it gives them scholarship-wise and admissions-wise.
I'm going to U of T engineering next fall, but still haven't fully decide on engineering or med as a career path... Love working with people, but thought volunteering at a hospital might give me an idea of whether or not I'd like to do it. No personal gain from this really... I mean I could just walk around a hospital and get the same idea. But you know, I thought it might be good since it's the hospital I was born in, go to, etc. I've been volunteering there since summer started, along with my bf, who did so for pretty much the same reasons, he's stuck btw business and med, but that's not the point. Even the coordinators, they wonder why we're there since we have no volunteer hours to fulfill. Everyone seems confused as to why a student would want to "waste" their time volunteering when they got nothing out of it. They don't even give students anything to do. They must take people in, knowing they won't be doing anything, just to get their hours. Which seems weird seeing as how it's some kind of "competitive" volunteer position that a couple hundred or something students apply to and only 25 or so get in. Most students would probably love to get to do jack all to get their volunteer hours... but I'm sitting here thinking, I don't need to be here, I WANT to be here... I want to help out.
I don't know really, but I think the mandatory community service hours for high school students has shifted the idea of volunteerism to something completely self-centered, and not at all what it should be. It's such an egotistical pursuit... competing for numbers of hours completed doing nothing? Wasting time on meaningless "tasks" that help nobody but you to get some lousy scholarship or part-time job?
I'm done ranting. If I started on about ECs and clubs this might turn into half-assed essay-type massacre.
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Rank: Student Body Vice-President
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/5/2008
Posts: 773
Location: toronto
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^ I agree.
I loved when one person here quoted "you cant get in anywhere with only 93.8 average", implying that I need some ECs added on top of that.
uw/wlu DD '13
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Rank: Student Body President
Groups: Member
Joined: 6/5/2008
Posts: 1,081
Location: Edmonton, AB
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I do disagree with mandatory volunteer hours. We had to hours of "creativity, action and service" for IB, which ended up with a LOT of IB people volunteering/joining athletic clubs just to fulfill their hours and then leaving as soon as they did.
I volunteered because I really enjoyed it and got WELL over my mandatory number of hours.
University of Alberta - Mechanical Engineering '11
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Rank: Valedictorian
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/4/2008
Posts: 591
Location: Toronto, ON
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caitlinnn wrote:I'm going to U of T engineering next fall, but still haven't fully decide on engineering or med as a career path... So what's the answer? Engineering or Med for you? haha
-University of Toronto Electrical Engineering 1T0!
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Rank: Student Body President
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/4/2008
Posts: 1,133
Location: Ottawa
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I think part of the idea behind mandatory hours is that it provides an initial "push" to get people involved in some volunteer activities, with the hope that some of them who might not otherwise have started volunteering will continue to do so.
 
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Rank: Valedictorian
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/7/2008
Posts: 552
Location: toronto
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hopeful_student wrote:I am getting pretty sick and tired of extracurriculars and volunteer work being taken into account for university programs and scholarships. I don't understand why it matters if I was in the chess team or whatever. ECs and Volunteer work should be done because you want to not because you feel that you have too. During high school I didn't give a darn about any Ec's but I managed to work over 2000 hours which I think is way more productive. Why do they expect a highschool kid who is soon going to pay 15gs a year for university to spend his time volunteering.
90% of the people I know who are involved in Ecs other than sports, are only in it to gain something for themselves and I find it sickening. All these "social awareness clubs" that they join are stupid and I don't understand how admissions committies can't see through their phoniness.
What do you guys think? Should Ecs be considered in admission or rewards? You know, they have support groups for people like you...
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Rank: Valedictorian
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/7/2008
Posts: 552
Location: toronto
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The point of required volunteer hours is two-fold. One, keep kids out of trouble. Two, maybe have a few kids actually catch on and matke a difference.
More importantly see my above comment. They don't jsut have groups for alcoholics anymore. You can get help with almost any drug addiction. There is a complete flaw in your thinking. Yes the hospital you work at are use to kids doing their hours. This is not WHY they have nothing for u to do. The reason there is nothing for you to do is this, incompetence. Now don't get me wrong, I don't know you. You may be competant, you may not, but the fact is, most highschool kids (this being prepetuated by the fact that EVERYONE is forced into a volunteer job for that 40 hours) are incompetant. They don't care, they don't know, and they don't care to know. Thus, the people who head up the little highschool group of volunteers have low expectations.
This is unfortunate, but it doesn't mean volunteering and ECs are crap. This means your volunteering and ECs are crap. If you don't like your volunteer spot. Get a better one. Approach a doctor and ask to shadow them. If you're into research, get into a lab. I'm looking into med too. I also wonder if biomed research is for me. Either way, being in a biomed lab give me valuable experience in biology, and lab techniques even if I go into med where I wont need the lab stuff. And ya, it means that my resume will be at the top of the proverbial pile. But guess what. It's not BS. I do the jobs of a regular lab employee. I do bloodwork, DNA sequencing, and help out with certain other projects. I have my own that I do mostly without help. I contribute to the lab. Solve problems even when no one else can (btw, pretty friggin good feeling in a room of post-docs and people with masters). Anyway, its not all BS. You just have to find something real, and prove yourself.
And guess what, I'd say about 80% of the people who won these scholarships we're talking about, GENUINELY DID THAT.
If it was BS, it'd be seen through as you said (or maybe the original poster did). It's their job to know the BS from the gems.
git real
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Rank: Valedictorian
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 562
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karla wrote:I do disagree with mandatory volunteer hours. We had to hours of "creativity, action and service" for IB, which ended up with a LOT of IB people volunteering/joining athletic clubs just to fulfill their hours and then leaving as soon as they did.
I volunteered because I really enjoyed it and got WELL over my mandatory number of hours. Yeah =( The big problem with IB is that the course load is so heavy that everybody becomes reaaaaally selfish. Unless they're "dumb" like me and decide to bypass homework for volunteer activities. @Kaylya I think the idea for it being a "push" is well thought out but I have never met anybody who wasn't interested in volunteer in the first place continue to be dedicated after mandantory requirements are met. People are just lazy =(
UWO 2012
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Rank: Senior Student
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/7/2008
Posts: 104
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Haha, if anything, we should have a standardized test, and our marks should count for less, not ECs.
Seriously, marks are more dependant on the type of school/program/teachers/schedule/attitude than by intelligence alone. If a person is truly stellar, but got screwed over by bad teachers, then the only way universities can tell is though ECs and performances on standardized tests.
Of course, the type of EC matters as well. No doubt about that. But if a person's EC is quite remarkable, then it'd be in the applicant's best interest to outline exactly what he or she did that places him/her above those that simply went for the hours. No matter what, ECs take time. If a person is willing to spend their time doing what they want, then of course it should count. Who would want or suggest that people doing ECs are wasting their time?
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Rank: Valedictorian
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 562
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BrackenClelk wrote:Haha, if anything, we should have a standardized test, and our marks should count for less, not ECs.
Seriously, marks are more dependant on the type of school/program/teachers/schedule/attitude than by intelligence alone. If a person is truly stellar, but got screwed over by bad teachers, then the only way universities can tell is though ECs and performances on standardized tests.
Of course, the type of EC matters as well. No doubt about that. But if a person's EC is quite remarkable, then it'd be in the applicant's best interest to outline exactly what he or she did that places him/her above those that simply went for the hours. No matter what, ECs take time. If a person is willing to spend their time doing what they want, then of course it should count. Who would want or suggest that people doing ECs are wasting their time? I'm absolutely with you about standarization; the disparity between schools is unfair and just about impossible to discern from the point of view of an university admissions officer.
UWO 2012
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Rank: Valedictorian
Groups: Member
Joined: 3/7/2008
Posts: 552
Location: toronto
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Pinku wrote:
I'm absolutely with you about standarization; the disparity between schools is unfair and just about impossible to discern from the point of view of an university admissions officer.
I disagree. For most programs (the ones that are simple to get into), you're right. A computer takes your marks and calculates whether or not u make the cutoff, so in that sense, standardized testing would be a plus. However, the better programs (where its not just about the computer choosing whos in), the admissions officers CERTAINLY know from which schools and programs a 90 is worth more than others. This would come from a simply calculable average change in mark from highschool to university for each school.
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Rank: Senior Student
Groups: Member
Joined: 5/7/2008
Posts: 104
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Whether universities nudge your marks or not, the system is still unfair. Even if universities take high schools into account, there are many key points that remain unsettled:
One: High school teachers vary in their teaching styles. Especially in subjects like English, the class averages can range between 85 - 95 % for the same school. Some science teachers shove research papers down their student's throats, while others let students redo quizzes. What if a teacher is absent for the semester (for whatever reasons) and an easier/harder substitute comes in? How will the universities know that? Are they just taking the lowest denominator and expecting that the student had the easiest teachers?
Two: People's schedules vary wildly. If they adjust people's averages based on high schools, then universities certainly must take course completion dates into account. After all, there is no way a student with six courses is on par with a student with eight courses - assuming they both have the same average and ECs. Also, what if a student takes a course during summer school? Or online? That's no longer a part of their high school. How can universities tinker with those marks? Especially if it's a required prerequisite like English where a slight adjustment could mean admission or rejection? (And is taking six courses planning ahead? Or is the student afraid of his/her time-management abilities?)
Three: Universities don't have data for new high schools.
Four: High school's quality changes over time. Due to old teachers leaving, different curriculum...etc. Universities won't discover that the quality of the high school changed until after they admit the under-qualified students.
Five: While I do not doubt that universities have that sort of system, in the end, no university will be likely to reject you if you significantly clear their admission average and with strong ECs. They would only bother looking at high schools if you're teetering on the brink. (In fact, I can't imagine universities calling up every one of your references either. And let's face it, your references could just as well be lying)
Six: The admissions officers don't have enough time to psychoanalyze you. To them, you are characters on a printed page or numbers flickering across a screen.
Here's an analogy: you want to get married to a nice girl. But, here's the catch - you can only find her online based on her internet profile. You can have access to her Facebook, mySpace, whatever. But the point is - you must never to meet her in person before you say "I do". You must never participate in live-chat with her before you seal the deal. You must never send an impartial person to confirm her personality. Everything you know about her must be constructed from the opinions of her friends. Because after all, if her friends are terrific people, it must mean that the girl is a keeper right?
Look, Canadian universities won't bother with interviews. So what do they do? Exactly as I've said above. They judge you based on your "friends/connections", (high school), the "opinions of those friends" (marks), and "profiles" (ECs). Isn't it so much better to say, without a shadow of a doubt, this is what student X is capable of compared to student Y? None of this "if student X's high school is 0.8 times better student Y's high school. But student X's high school's quality shows an exponential rise in quality over the past five years, but the last batch of student X's high school's students did poorly in our program, but... " (Believe me, universities will make cold and quick decisions - they don't even WANT to consider high schools)
So what to do? How do you find the best student? Simplicity itself: Standardize, standardize, standardize. Use the same scale. Set the same constants. Convert to proper units. Then high schools would be more competitive, teachers would do their jobs, drop out rates would decrease, and universities will finally attain the proper prestige that they deserve.
P.S. Lol, and just for the record, if I had an easy English teacher, I could slap my name on this post and call it an essay.
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Rank: Valedictorian
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Joined: 5/20/2008
Posts: 562
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I think the point BrackeClelk made about the differences WITHIN schools is very very important; having been in the IB program, even after class standarization any subject mark will be significantly lower than what I could have achieved with the same level of work. However, I have absolutly no difficulty scoring higher on a standarized final exam than another person with the same average with me, but non-IB.
While universities can attempt to adjust marks according to high schools, there is no way any assessment can be accurate or up to date. Futhermore, I highly doubt they would do this... How would they be able to consistantly justify the quality of any given school with the quality of the person in question?
I wish the top Canadian programs would begin to have interviews; many people look good on paper but are really not the best candidates in person.
UWO 2012
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Rank: Student Body President
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Joined: 6/5/2008
Posts: 1,081
Location: Edmonton, AB
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Our IB program adjusted the marks so the average was at 70-80%, and I think my marks were on par with what I would've gotten in regular. Although I'm sure not every school does this. And regardless our diploma exams were worth 50% of our course mark anyways, so yay for Alberta and standardized testing here!
University of Alberta - Mechanical Engineering '11
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